Interview with Ali Sutch, KPA-CTP CCUI on Dog Play
Interview conducted by: Stephanie Keesey-Phelan, Ph.D., BCBA, CSAT, CCUI, FFCT
At DBI we believe that no person, no family, and certainly no dog trainer or behaviorist is an island. If you read our blog regularly, you already know that we believe that if you are a behavior analyst by profession, you are not your dog’s behavior analyst. But you may not know that we often collaborate with other dog training professionals to increase our knowledge and skills, and when we are working with a client whose behavioral presentation falls beyond our scope or expertise. Collaboration with other qualified professionals is a huge part of our work. It allows us to provide the most ethical and effective treatment for the dogs we work with, and also helps us build a wonderful community committed to making lives better for dogs and their people.
To that end, we are expanding our blog to include interviews with some of the amazing professionals who we collaborate with and who work with dogs across a variety of settings and locations. Our goal in doing this is to introduce you, our readers, to people who work in a variety of areas in the dog world but who share a common mission of increasing your dog’s welfare.
Ali with Juice Box and Minnow
Photo by Arcane Photography
This month we are delighted to introduce you to Ali Sutch, KPA-CPT CCUI (she/they). Ali owns Up to Snuff where they provide dog behavior consultation, day training, group classes, and virtual learning opportunities. Ali is a tremendously talented dog professional and someone who focuses a great deal on dog-dog play and dog-dog interactions. I learned so much from our conversation and know that you will too!
Tell our readers a bit about yourself. How did you decide that you wanted to work with animals (and dogs in particular)?
As an undergraduate I majored in environmental studies and was working at the Pittsburgh Zoo's education department. We focused on how we could educate the public about environmental issues and raise awareness and connection with nature. Half of my job was caring for the program animals. We had a couple of macaws, great horned owls, barn owls, a kestrel, a prehensile tail porcupine, fennec foxes, snakes, baby alligators, turtles, frogs, rabbits, ferrets, and lots more I’m forgetting! We would bring animals out for presentations and I would describe the animal and the environment it lives in, what the animal was like in the wild, and why people should care about it. As part of this job we read Karen Pryor’s book: Don’t Shoot the Dog! Then when my partner and I moved out to California, I started working at a natural history museum and aquarium providing similar animal education and interactive presentations. I found that in that setting there were not opportunities for upward mobility and I wasn’t super interested in working with the public in that capacity anymore. I’m an introvert and it was a huge energy drain for me to give presentations in front of hundreds of people every day.
After that I worked as a care navigator (like a case manager) at a nonprofit called PAWS. That organization focuses on supporting people in San Francisco who are experiencing homelessness, poverty, chronic illness, etc. with practical and emotional support in taking care of their pets. There is a pet food bank and a budget for medical care and dog walking services and things like that. I learned a lot working there. This program started to do an Ask the Trainer program and I started to meet some local animal trainers. From there I completed the Karen Pryor Dog Trainer Professional course and began doing dog training part time. When the pandemic happened, I realized I didn’t want to go back to working for someone else anymore.
Where do you work now and what is your role?
In 2020 I started Up to Snuff. I do a few different things including private coaching and consulting, day training, and group classes with Cory Abshear through her business Dog Trek Oakland. I also have online webinars and classes. The dogs I work with tend to have big feelings about the world in some capacity. During the week I do a lot of day training and on weekends I do more coaching, I like a healthy mix of both. I am particular about who I work with and who I think would be a good fit. In terms of coaching I’m specifically interested in working with people who are already living a positive-reinforcement based life with their dogs. Lately, I’ve worked with a number of clients who have worked with other trainers and feel like they have plateaued. With these clients I feel like I can offer help in thinking more carefully about things like choice and paying really careful attention to thresholds and things like play and how the dogs interact with other dogs in different contexts. I look at how these things may be influencing their behavior.
What is your favorite part of your job?
My favorite thing is meeting people who love their dogs so much and center them in their lives, and are excited about learning. I've met so many lovely people – people that I want to be friends with too, because my dogs are the most important thing in my life so I relate! Seeing them being goofy and silly with their dogs, but also being committed to supporting their dogs and doing anything for their well being – those are my people!
What do you like least about your job?
Taxes. (I, Stephanie, laughed out loud at this - SO relatable!)
What special interests do you have within your field?
“It’s really easy to fall into the trap of starting with a narrative and then working backwards – like deciding from the get-go that putting two dogs together means they are going to play, and then filling in the gaps to fit what you hope is going on. But we really need to observe and interpret what we’re actually seeing.”
Dog-dog play and interaction is on its way to being a specialty for me. It's something I'm really interested in. Although most people are not coming to me specifically for that, it is what I like to think about and make content about - and learn about for myself.
I used to volunteer at a shelter that brought in someone to facilitate dog playgroups and I was super excited about it. However, looking back, it was very not good. There were lots of stressed out dogs who had no choice in the matter of interacting with other dogs. There was a great deal of punishment and it did not really serve any enriching purpose for the dogs. I got some space from that shelter and broadened my learning about dog-dog interactions. I learned how to slow down videos and really stay honest about body language and what I was observing. It’s really easy to fall into the trap of starting with a narrative and then working backwards – like deciding from the get-go that putting two dogs together means they are going to play, and then filling in the gaps to fit what you hope is going on. But we really need to observe and interpret what we’re actually seeing.
I think generally learning dog body language is the core skill of learning to observe and manage play. When you learn dog body language that is related to stress, many of those behaviors will show up in dog-dog interactions. Some behaviors are a little bit more specific to play but a lot of it is the same way dogs communicate their feelings in the rest of their lives.
Should dogs to go large daycares / dog parks?
I try not to give blanket advice generally, but I draw a pretty hard line on dog parks. Not because I think that no dogs ever enjoy them, but because I think it's just too risky. Anybody could come in there bringing any dog. A lot of times people aren't paying attention or they're of the mindset that dogs just work it out and they don't have to be responsible for their dog's behavior. I think it's just a really arousing situation too and I don't like to see dogs learning that other dogs are associated with high arousal states. I much prefer that dogs learn how to coexist peacefully around other dogs, rather than always being “go go go”.
With regard to daycares, the questions I'll ask first when somebody tells me that their dog goes to daycare is “What function does that serve for you? Is that because you work really long hours and you feel bad that your dog is alone all day, or is it because you think it's providing some social benefit to them?” And if it's the former, that they are busy and need help, then I'll take a harm reduction approach. I might ask: which day care are you going to, how many days a week? Are there other things that we can look into as alternatives? But I'm never going to tell them in that circumstance to just pull out of daycare completely because it's meeting some need. However, if it is the latter and they think the daycare is providing some benefit to the dog, as though they were bringing their dog to Chuck E Cheese with the dog’s friends, I will tell them it’s a really sweet idea and that we can think about their dog's social needs and other ways, but I think this might be more harmful than good right now. I'm lucky enough to live in an area where we do have tons of places where, if you have a really social dog you can go to an off-leash hiking trail where it's not a dog park but you're pretty likely to come across other dogs at certain points and that if your dog is interested in having a 30 second interaction with another pro social dog, you can do that and then keep moving and it's not a constant state of high arousal. This is still risky but may be preferable to a large daycare or dog park.
Should dogs have lots of (or any!) friends?
“There’s a lot of evidence showing that the social window, so to speak, closes around 3 years old. So the function of having play interactions with other dogs is pretty much met by that time. It is really developmentally appropriate for dogs to not care about interacting with other dogs after that age, or they just become a lot more selective about where, when, and with what dogs they might like certain kinds of interactions. There are a lot of ways that a dog can exist around another dog without actually engaging in play.”
I think it's a really sweet idea but a very human construct, right? The idea that you have a friend group that you meet up with regularly and share updates about your life or whatever. What I always tell my clients, especially if it's a dog that's past adolescence and having some complex feelings about other dogs, is that there's a lot of evidence showing that the social window, so to speak, closes around 3 years old. So the function of having play interactions with other dogs is pretty much met by that time. It is really developmentally appropriate for dogs to not care about interacting with other dogs after that age, or they just become a lot more selective about where, when, and with what dogs they might like certain kinds of interactions. There are a lot of ways that a dog can exist around another dog without actually engaging in play.
That being said, there is huge value in predictability. My dogs and I have a circle of friends that we meet up with regularly for hikes. I like to think that this is what my dogs prefer in terms of dog-dog social time – a parallel activity with known dogs whose behavior is predictable and low pressure.
What even IS dog-dog play?
I think that there are a lot of ways that we can talk about play, but the simplest to me is, if it's healthy play, it's usually two dogs, in a back and forth where one dog’s behavior elicits a playful response from the other. The interaction flows well and they're having fun. There's joyful body language, there's enough space between the dogs, there's communication between the dogs that shows they are actually playing. They are checking in on each other to make sure the interaction remains playful. They take breaks and engage in meta signals which are behaviors that are interspersed throughout play that put it in context. A play bow is a classic example (though not always) that what comes after it is going to be play. In general it's about fun. It may serve some developmental purposes in terms of learning predatory behaviors and things like that. But the point of it in general is that it’s just fun.
Do you make a distinction between dog-dog interaction and dog-dog play?
Yes! An example is that as an introvert I am somebody who has very specific parameters in which hanging out with other people fills my cup. And it totally does, but I'm not the kind of person that wants to sit across from a stranger at a table and talk back and forth. This can be more exhausting for me than if somebody comes over and we do a parallel activity. We have some space to talk if we want to, though we mostly kind of do our own thing. It’s super low pressure. One example of this is my favorite way to interact with other people: going for a walk with the dogs. You're focused on your own activity and then your interactions with the other person are not as direct.
For dogs, something like going on parallel walks with each other is a way this type of interaction might play out. This could be an interaction that fills their social cup. If a dog doesn't enjoy playing with other dogs, but we feel like some social interaction might meet a need and provide some enrichment, then something like a parallel sniffy walk, where occasionally the dogs can have a brief interaction, can be an enriching experience without being play.
How can you determine if your dog is one who would benefit from or enjoys playing with other dogs?
We can do this by observing what happens during and after an interaction and then saying afterwards: did that meet a need or not? You could have some kind of measure of a target behavior and describe if it increased or decreased after the interaction.
For example, if I have a dog that we might label as having frustration-based reactivity, where unpredictable access and interaction with dogs has led to complex feelings around other dogs, we might consider adding really safe low-arousal, low-risk interactions with other dogs. This might be with one of my dogs or some other known dog if they already have a dog they interact well with. It isn’t rough and tumble play but just parallel walks or a little bit of play interspersed with other things the dog enjoys. We can watch how the dog responds during and after. There doesn’t always have to be something we measure although if I’m hired to work with someone I will provide that level of support.
For my own dogs, they play with each other, but pretty much every other dog that we interact with is in the context of an off-leash hike together. They are mostly doing their own thing and occasionally coming in and interacting with each other for a couple of seconds. The dogs get excited to see each other initially but then go off and do their own thing. For my dog Minnow, sometimes I see changes in her body language after we meet up with somebody. When we arrive, she might be a little bit more hesitant about the environment but when she sees the person and the dog (honestly more the person than the dog) she’ll run up to them super excited and then for the rest of the walk her body language is super loose, waggy, and happy. I think this can help us answer the question of: is this dog-dog interaction a positive experience?
I feel like half the battle is figuring out and teaching people that things that they think are positive experiences might not be, and that comes back to body language. I've had some people come to me saying that their dog loves other dogs, and then I see behaviors that suggest otherwise. These clients often send me videos between sessions and I'll ask them, "What body language do you notice?” I'll send them some resources and I might follow up with more specific questions like “what about the moment at this [X] second mark, what do you make of the posture of the tail or the mouth?” I try not to say “oh that’s bad” but instead “here’s a particular thing that when you notice this next time you can do XY, and Z.” Behaviors that I may find concerning can become cues for the guardian to step in or redirect.
Can dogs learn to play if they don’t already?
“I don’t really teach dogs how to play, because I think it’s something that they either do or they don’t do, but I would teach them some things that they can do when they feel uncomfortable or over aroused... These are some core skills and if play becomes part of that, we can make sure it’s happening safely, but I haven’t ever set a goal of teaching a dog how to play.”
I have some clients that will come to me curious about how their dog (older than 3 years old) would interact with other dogs. Right now I’m thinking of a client dog who is very barky-lungy when he sees dogs out in the world, but has also had successful interactions with a friend’s dog. Part of what we are working on is building some skills to see if he would be successful just around other dogs in general. The end goal is not that we want him to play with another dog. However, we do want to explore if being around another dog in some other capacity will be enriching for him.
I don't really teach dogs how to play, because I think it's something that they either do or they don't do, but I would teach them some things that they can do when they feel uncomfortable or over aroused. That might include how to approach and retreat from another dog, or how to do your own thing when there's another dog around? These are some core skills and if play becomes part of that, as in something that they decide to do on their own, we can facilitate that and make sure it's happening safely, but I haven’t ever set a goal of teaching a dog how to play.
I think the trickiest case is when a dog has something like barrier reactivity. Introducing other dogs is challenging because we have to ask “how do we get you comfortable interacting with another dog when the way to get there (over to the other dog) is stressful”? I am thinking of a particular dog I have right now who has had successful interactions with other dogs in a play context, and has a pretty good ability to take breaks, but is reactive when on leash from a football field’s distance. So how do we get her there? This is something I can help guide them through.
When dogs do interact, what are your thoughts about letting dogs “correct” each other? This comes up a lot with new puppies and I often hear the recommendation that we should let adult dogs or other dogs correct puppies when they engage in inappropriate behaviors.
“If somebody comes to me with a dog who has leash reactivity and they are saying, “My dog is playing with this other dog that gives some really good corrections,” I want them to think about: what do we want your dog to learn? How do you want your dog to feel about other dogs? I want the dog to learn that other dogs are predictable and safe. ”
With play, even people who are on board with positive reinforcement can so easily get swept up into the narrative that play is this magical thing that only dogs can do together. When really it's all behavior, right? And so if we don't want our dogs to learn through punishment otherwise (which we don't) why would we want them to learn about other dogs through punishment? If we want them to learn how to interact and play with another dog, which we said is supposed to be joyful, why would we want it have an aversive flavoring to it? And it’s also not fair to that adult dog because a lot of adult dogs are not happy to be around puppies. The puppies are jumping all over them and unpredictable and all up in their business so if they're correcting that puppy (e.g., trying to get their behavior to stop) it's because they're stressed. They didn’t sign up to be a teacher.
For the dog or puppy being corrected, you risk all of the fallout of punishment. This can mean learning that other dogs predict scary things. They don’t actually learn what to do, so the corrected dog leaves the interaction with a skill deficit too. I feel like when you see dogs that run up to other dogs and then just freeze, roll over on their bellies, or show appeasement behavior, they don't really know how to have a good interaction. They just know that the other dog might snap at them and it causes stress on both sides.
If somebody comes to me with a dog who has leash reactivity and they are saying, “My dog is playing with this other dog that gives some really good corrections,” I want them to think about: what do we want your dog to learn? How do you want your dog to feel about other dogs? I want the dog to learn that other dogs are predictable and safe. But if it's rough and tumble all the time, if the dog doesn’t have the fluent behaviors to bring a high arousal situation back down, they’re going to associate the sight of other dogs with that intense emotional state. Being snapped at or corrected isn’t going to help that at all. I think this leads to a lot of frustration-based reactivity or complicated feelings about other dogs.
Play happens so fast too and consequences for play behaviors are applied by the other dog. But I think that makes it easy for people to wipe their hands and say the dogs are doing their dog thing and that's something they don't have to worry about or touch at all.
What is the most common misconception(s) you have heard about dog-dog interaction?
“It’s so important to slow down and ask: what are you actually seeing here? You can let that guide you as opposed to what you wish you were seeing or what the story you’ve been told is. ”
I think a big one is that running is a play behavior or that seeing dogs run together is play. It depends on the body language. You don't have to be an expert in play specifically to be an expert in dog body language. You can take what you know about dog body language and then interpret what's going on for that particular dog. If a dog is running and we see their body language includes a nice, loose exaggerated gait, like the rocking-horse gait, we might talk about that as play. If we see the tail is neutral or elevated and wagging loosely from the base, and the dog has a loose open mouth and floppy ears, that to me is a dog who is running because it feels good to run. On the other hand, if you see a dog that is running for speed, a dog with a tense face who is sprinting and the movement is being used efficiently to get away, that is a dog who is running for distance, literally trying to run and get away from something.
It’s so important to slow down and ask: what are you actually seeing here? You can let that guide you as opposed to what you wish you were seeing or what the story you’ve been told is. This was my personal experience with the play groups I was observing early on. I thought oh my gosh these dogs are running around together, they must be having fun. When I rewatch those videos now I see the running was to get away or the running was because they were over aroused and trying to chase the other dog who wasn't reciprocating that.
Do dogs have different play styles? Are there different play styles associated with different breeds? We often hear about some breeds like bully breeds having a “rough” play style.
I think bringing up bullies is really complicated because it's such an umbrella term and most of the time people are talking about mixed breed dogs. I think what people are mostly seeing is high arousal: that the dog doesn't have skills to regulate and is probably not having the best time or learning what we want them to learn. This interpretation is doing a huge disservice to the image of these dogs - that they are super rough and tumble. My dog Juice Box could interact like that, but to me if he's slamming into other dogs, this is a sign that he is probably not feeling super comfortable, maybe is having a stress response of: “Everything's fine. Don't hurt me. I'm just a silly little guy,” or he's just dysregulated and needs help calming down. So I really am not a fan of that.
“There’s no evidence that play styles exist as a fixed character trait.”
There's no evidence that play styles exist as a fixed character trait. I think it is definitely worth talking about particular breeds having certain characteristics as part of the modal action pattern (MAP) of the predatory sequence: orient, eye, stalk, chase, grab-bite, kill-bite, dissect, consume. Certain breeds are bred to have pieces of that sequence be more elevated. I think it's fine to see those behaviors and think this might be an appropriate expression of a breed-specific behavior for this dog, but I don't think that should ever get in the way of asking: is this a healthy interaction? Is the other dog reciprocating this, or is this dog experiencing stressful levels of high arousal, whether it's like positive or negative valence. You can be super stoked on something and be very, very stressed even if it's not like being distressed. I think, again, we get caught up in those narratives so easily. If somebody ever explains an interaction as relating to a play style I always will push back and have them really think about what's going on. If we get to the conclusion that it is okay if a dog engages in this behavior, for example a sighthound for whom running feels good because their bodies are more or less built for that, then cool. I would want to look at different pieces of that body language to make sure this is actually a joyful expression of running, but it also could be any number of things that, if we're just going to label it as a breed specific trait, we might miss.
Do you have any resources you recommend for people who want to learn more about dog-dog interaction and play? How can people learn more?
“I think body language is something you can never really learn enough of. I’ve learned a lot from watching videos in slow motion, writing down what I think is going on, and then comparing notes with a friend, trainer, or client. You have to be open to learning more and being wrong. ”
A few books on body language I have used are: Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Handbook, Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide, and Lili Chin’s Doggie Language.
At Up to Snuff I have a Play It Cool webinar that is an hour-long webinar introducing the basics of healthy and safe dog-dog play. I also do Play Dates which is for people that have done my webinar, they can submit videos and then we watch them in a group and discuss them together, this is conducted remotely via Zoom.
I would tell people just to learn about dog body language. You can learn more specifically about playing for sure: things like meta signals and arousal. I think it is a really important thing to learn about what arousal means and what to look for. In general though, I think body language is something you can never really learn enough of. I've learned a lot from watching videos in slow motion, writing down what I think is going on, and then comparing notes with a friend, trainer, or client. You have to be open to learning more and being wrong.
