Interview with Lyz Knight, IAABC-ADT, CDPT-KA, FFCP, on fearful dogs
Interview conducted by: Stephanie Keesey-Phelan, Ph.D., BCBA, CSAT, CCUI, FFCT
At DBI we believe that no person, no family, and certainly no dog trainer or behaviorist is an island. If you read our blog regularly, you already know that we believe that if you are a behavior analyst by profession, you are not your dog’s behavior analyst. But you may not know that we often collaborate with other dog training professionals to increase our knowledge and skills, and when we are working with a client whose behavioral presentation falls beyond our scope or expertise. Collaboration with other qualified professionals is a huge part of our work. It allows us to provide the most ethical and effective treatment for the dogs we work with, and also helps us build a wonderful community committed to making lives better for dogs and their people.
To that end, we are expanding our blog to include interviews with some of the amazing professionals who we collaborate with and who work with dogs across a variety of settings and locations. Our goal in doing this is to introduce you, our readers, to people who work in a variety of areas in the dog world but who share a common mission of increasing your dog’s welfare.
This month it is our pleasure to introduce you to Lyz Knight of Rover Rehab Dog Training. Lyz provides one-on-one dog consultation and group classes and specializes in working with dogs who have challenges with fear and anxiety. I (Stephanie) hired Lyz last year to help me with some challenges Kerby has around unfamiliar guests visiting our home. Lyz brought such insight and patience into our work together. Kerby and I both benefited so much from her expertise and recommendations. So you can imagine how exciting it was for me to sit down with Lyz to talk more about dogs we label as fearful. I hope you enjoy and learn as much as I did from our conversation.
Tell our readers a bit about yourself. How did you decide that you wanted to work with animals (and dogs in particular)?
I am based out of Medford, Massachusetts and I serve the surrounding area. I first got involved in training in 2014 via my current senior dog, Molly. She came to me with a lot of big negative feelings about unfamiliar people and other dogs and that was quite unexpected when I brought her home. I think for many of us who end up with dogs with Big Feelings, we're not going into it anticipating that.
And so I got her home and immediately realized I had no idea how to even start helping her feel better about the world in general. And I, like many folks, ended up at a local trainer who was recommended by most people. It turned out to be what I would now probably call a “balanced” board and train facility. I was doing just one-on-one sessions with them, I never did the board and train program. I did learn a lot while I was there and I was also able to kind of solidify for myself the things that didn't feel good for me in the training that was being offered.
As I kind of branched out and started doing more learning and found the positive reinforcement community and the force free community I was like, oh this feels nice.I want to do this thing. This is the part of it that I am excited about.
I continued to learn more and got access to more aspects of positive reinforcement training and learning from other people. I got a couple of certifications and started my own company and now here we are in the good year of 2023 and I have been doing this professionally for about 6 years.
Where do you work and what is your role? What special interests do you have within your field?
I own Rover Rehab Dog Training and I work primarily with private training clients. I work in person in and around Medford, Massachusetts and I also do a lot of work online working virtually via Zoom. I started doing virtual work during the pandemic, but then I just kept at it because I actually love it a lot.
I work a lot with nervous dogs or dogs who we might label as “nervous, anxious, or reactive.” Bark-y, lunge-y dogs, but also dogs who have some smaller behaviors that let us know that they are afraid: dogs who engage in things like hiding and fleeing. I actually really like working with those cases virtually because I don't have to start off with the dog by saying “Hi, I’m a stranger in your home” and they have absolutely no skills to use to help them feel better about that. So even when I work with in-person cases, we often start online because I want the dogs and the humans to get some good things in their playbook that they can utilize, and then we can be strategic about how we introduce in-person work.
I also teach online group classes specifically for nervous dogs, working on things to help them feel more confident and comfortable around anything in the world. It's kind of a vast subject:. novel sounds, people, and other dogs. In a group class it is really fun to get to see dog guardians connect with each other and see “oh, I'm not the only person experiencing this,” because I think it can feel isolating when you have a dog who needs some extra behavior support and so hard to feel like you're alone in that. So I've really gotten attached to the group classes because I get to see some of that happen live on my Zoom screen.
One thing that you do so well is work with people who are thinking about crossing over from a more balanced training approach to positive reinforcement.
When I first started training the way that is much closer to the way that I train now, I was just so excited about it that I really wanted everyone else to be equally as excited about it. And so I did kind of go hard with some of my first clients in an approach of: We're just gonna immediately switch to positive reinforcement because everything else is bad and this is the best. It isn't necessarily that I think that that approach is entirely wrong, but I don't think that is the approach for me. That approach hasn’t been the most effective at getting people really feeling like they can be on board with the way that I prefer to train or have them feel empowered to train that way.
“Dogs who are barking, lunging, or any of those bigger behaviors, might actually just be very uncomfortable. Knowing this helps us to tap into some additional empathy with our dogs. We can see that they’re having a hard time, so we can ask “How can we support you?” as opposed to “How do we just make a behavior stop?””
Crossing over is scary. You have this whole set of skills that you have relied on and then when those are no longer at your disposal, there's a lot of unknown. Like what are you gonna do with this? Your behavior problems are still there and your tools are gone. I do think the fact that I spent time training my dog in ways that I would no longer train dogs, and then also went through the steep learning curve of figuring out other options is helpful when I'm talking to clients who are in the process of going through that themselves. I think sometimes people feel like, well, I'm just not doing it well and I'm the problem. My response is “no, no, this is hard!”
What are some common misconceptions you encounter about fearful dogs?
I think the very first one that comes to mind is thinking of fearful dogs as only being dogs who are in flight mode - dogs who make themselves smaller, dogs who shake, dogs who have a very specific look to what their fear looks like. I think people often don't realize that fear in dogs can also look many other ways: it can look like barking, lunging, growling, and those signals that I think we tend to immediately label, as a society, as aggression. In my experience those behaviors are often related to fear and I think it's cool to talk to pet guardians about the fact that fear might actually be the thing that's at play. I think it helps reframe for folks what is underlying their dog's behavior and that it's not about them being “mean” or “bad”. Dogs who are barking, lunging, or any of those bigger behaviors, might actually just be very uncomfortable. Knowing this helps us to tap into some additional empathy with our dogs. We can see that they’re having a hard time, so we can ask How can we support you? as opposed to How do we just make a behavior stop?
“I also think there’s sometimes a very well-intentioned misconception that feeding dogs who are afraid of you will make them not afraid of you...On the other hand, there’s also actually a flip side to that of people not wanting to feed a dog who’s afraid of something, because they’re worried that they’re going to reinforce the fear that the dog is experiencing. Luckily that generally is not what’s going to happen. Feeding your dog while they’re afraid of something actually tends to do the opposite: when we’re careful about how we do that, it tends to help them feel more comfortable, more positive toward the thing.”
I also think there's sometimes a very well-intentioned misconception that feeding dogs who are afraid of you will make them not afraid of you. I think it's a hard one because, when we think about counterconditioning procedures, there is often an element of: scary things being paired with something that is pleasant, and trying to change feelings that way. However, it's often a lot more nuanced than just having a new person feed your dog. Sometimes that can backfire on us because we can see a lot of conflict with a nervous dog. If there's someone who, again very well-intentioned, is trying to offer snacks to a dog who's very afraid, the dog if they want the food may approach a new person in order to access food, get close, realize they're close and go: Oh crap, I actually don't want to be this close to this person. This often leads to situations where people will say to me: my dog walked up to a person, took treats from them, and then started barking at them! This actually makes sense to me because it's entirely possible that the dog’s desire for something delicious ended up overriding some of their fear at that moment, but then they get close and are not actually comfortable. In this case we often see a kind of explosion of barking, lunging, or growling, or a dog that immediately runs away. It can be confusing for people where they think: Well, my dog approached someone, so I thought that they were comfortable, but then they weren't. A lot of times I'll tell people: I love that your instinct was to pair this scary person with food, but let's maybe not have the food come from the scary person as a general tip. Though we try not to give many general tips because they don't always apply.
On the other hand, there's also actually a flip side to that of people not wanting to feed a dog who's afraid of something, because they're worried that they're going to reinforce the fear that the dog is experiencing. Luckily that generally is not what's going to happen. Feeding your dog while they're afraid of something actually tends to do the opposite: when we're careful about how we do that, it tends to help them feel more comfortable, more positive toward the thing.
For the dogs you work with, what are some common fears that you see most often?
I don't tend to see dogs who have one single thing that they are feeling big feelings about. There tends to be crossover between buckets of things that the dog is worried about. For example, encountering unfamiliar people while out on a walk may be a separate but connected fear to people entering the home. We also could have dogs that just experience one of those as worrisome. Another example could be dogs who are uncomfortable with seeing other dogs out in the world and that could look different depending on if you’re out in the woods and you're hiking off leash versus if you’re walking on a sidewalk in a neighborhood. I might also see a dog who is afraid of certain sounds and that could vary depending on if they are sounds that the dog is hearing from inside or outside of their home.
The last sort of category or bucket I often see is fear around novelty. This could be related to things in the environment that have not always been there or something that changes in an existing environment. A common example I give is the change between someone sitting and someone standing up suddenly. I put that kind of environmental change in the bucket of novelty. I have worked with a couple of dogs who were terrified of boxes and packages that appeared in their homes. Or I’ve also worked with dogs who could pass by a person on the street without a problem but if a person appears suddenly from behind a hedge, that is more of a challenge.
I often work with dogs who have challenges based on the context. It may be an issue with people in some contexts, sounds in other contexts, and dogs in others. And so we're sort of parsing out what all of those different versions of feelings are and what the best approach is for any or all of them depending on the needs of the dog and guardians.
Do you work with dogs that have challenges around veterinary care and handling?
Yes, definitely. Things like nail trims, whether that's at home or at the vet; brushing or touching the dog’s body, or anything involved in that exam is often hard for dogs. I do work with folks on getting better setups for those scenarios. Often, that is an additional thing we're working on, along with something like fear of unfamiliar people. Because if we're going to a vet and the dog has either not met the vet staff or had some not altogether pleasant or even scary experiences and we’re pairing that with the dog also doesn’t like having their feet touched, we are often pulling from multiple aspects of what worries them simultaneously.
What is one thing you wish everyone knew about fearful dogs?
Fear can be underlying so many of the behaviors that we see. Having empathy and compassion and coming at it from a place of asking: How can we support a dog through this? versus again, asking: How can we get a behavior to stop? is the thing that is probably going to pay off the best for everyone both behavior-wise and emotionally.
I would also push back on the assumption that nervous or fearful dogs are just always going to be scared of all things. I've heard people say, “well they're just nervous” as though that is the dog’s identity. And yes, there are absolutely things that we very likely may need to support our dogs through for their whole lives. But that doesn't mean that behavior change in general is impossible and that we can't make progress towards helping them feel more comfortable in a lot of different situations.
When clients fill out an intake form to work with me, the last question I ask them is: What is your favorite thing about your dog? I ask because I think that gives me a really lovely window into the idea that people do know that their dogs are not just afraid or just anxious or just reactive or again any of these labels that we might use. There are really wonderful things that they see and appreciate about their dogs and so then we can talk about how we can foster more of that in these contexts where they maybe are not feeling so comfy.
“I would also push back on the assumption that nervous or fearful dogs are just always going to be scared of all things. I’ve heard people say, “Well they’re just nervous” as though that is the dog’s identity. And yes, there are absolutely things that we very likely may need to support our dogs through for their whole lives. But that doesn’t mean that behavior change in general is impossible and that we can’t make progress towards helping them feel more comfortable in a lot of different situations.”
On the flip side, another myth is that a fearful dog will just get over it. I especially hear this come up in cases where the dog is afraid of something like the vacuum or people knocking on the door or something fairly discrete in terms of whatever the stimulus is that they’re seeing. There’s this idea that the dog will eventually get over it. Some dogs may but I find the vast amount of dogs that I've worked with do not, and actually they often become more worried about things as time goes on. I always ask, what if there's a kind or more supportive way we could help our dogs feel better instead of just hoping that time and exposure will be the thing because very often that is not the thing.
Do you have a particular approach you employ when it comes to helping fearful dogs?
The magical trifecta of what I do, broadly speaking, is training, management, and enrichment. I always encourage people to consider doing some in-depth work with their dog’s veterinarian or vet behaviorist in terms of not just physical wellness, but in links between the dog’s health and behavior. There are links between things like gastrointestinal health and anxiety and reactivity among others and so I encourage them to explore with their vet if something like that needs to be addressed. I can send them some cool research if it feels relevant but these sorts of questions are outside of my area so working with their veterinarian or vet behaviorist is great.
When I talk about management, I'm thinking about how we can reduce or prevent access to things that are scary for this dog in whatever fashion. Sometimes that means making changes to your environment. So if I have a dog who is really worried about seeing people walking outside of the window, I might recommend something like adding a static cling opaque window film, to reduce the likelihood that the dog goes through that experience continuously. Sometimes the medication piece in conjunction with the vet can be helpful as part of management because if we don't have the option to reduce or eliminate exposure to things medication can sometimes help a dog feel better. Because we don't necessarily have the ability to control everything.
With regard to enrichment, I do some investigation with my clients. I have them try out some different forms of enrichment and do some observations. Sometimes I'll have people take an in depth look at the enrichment things that they're doing with their dogs already and ask: what is my dog's behavior like while they're doing this and what is my dog's behavior like afterwards? We can see if we can fill in some gaps around what to do if the dog is operating at some heightened level all the time. We can ask, what can we incorporate into their life to help them settle a little bit, help them exhibit more relaxed behaviors? And of course we look at whether we are also tackling all of the species-typical behavior needs within their enrichment plan.
That is generally where I start for pretty much everyone regardless of what their needs are because I think without that foundation it's going to be a lot harder to implement training and behavior change plans.
Outside of that, I would say the biggest overarching theme for any of the fearful dogs that I work with is starting to try to find as many ways as possible to build in some positive predictability around the things that they experience in their life. This involves looking at how we can start working on training games that allow them to learn that every time you experience this particular thing that has historically been scary, something predictably positive is going to happen instead.
“The biggest overarching theme for any of the fearful dogs that I work with is starting to try to find as many ways as possible to build in some positive predictability around the things that they experience in their life. ”
There are a lot of different ways we do that depending on the dog and the human and the space and the environment and all those other factors we take into account. It is so important and helpful to look at these things for individual dogs. Not every dog will respond the same way to different things, so this is another plug for curating things specifically to the dogs that you're working with. There are so many options for how we can approach that within the lovely, wonderful world of force-free training. It's so cool to me how expansive it can be: there's always something new to try or some slightly different way to kind of do something.
What is your favorite part of your job?
Oh gosh, I think my favorite thing has to be that I get to meet, interact with, and support so many people and so many dogs who have sort of a wide range of experiences and needs. Even if I have 3 or 4 sessions in a row one day, none of them are going to be the same, you know?
I think that that definitely appeals to the problem solver part of my brain, where it's like we get to make adjustments and be really strategic about things. My top top favorite thing is getting to see how excited the humans are when they have wins with their dog. I start a lot of my sessions with a question for my clients to share their wins for the week and getting to hear people share those is by far one of my all time favorite experiences to have.
What do you like least about your job?
When you start this job, they don't tell you how much time you're going to have to spend at your computer doing things like website design and fighting with formatting on things and so I think that would have to be my least favorite. It's not even directly related to working with dogs, but the number of times I've spent Googling very specific error codes and then going down a rabbit hole of step-by-step fixing things on the back end of my website is horrible! I’m sitting there basically just going: please don’t break, please don’t break, please don’t break!
Do you have any resources you recommend for people who want to learn more about helping their fearful dogs? How can our readers learn more?
I spend a decent amount of time on Instagram and I really enjoy getting to know folks there. That is also a good place where if you have questions I can let you know if it's something that I feel comfortable directing you to resources for or if I think you should get one-on-one help whether that’s with me or another person I trust that I could direct you to. I have a lot of wonderful folks that I get to interact with who are just amazing to work with and so I'm always happy to, if it's not something that I specialize in, provide a referral to someone I trust.
With regard to other resources, I have my free enrichment ebook that can be accessed on my website. This can help folks do some of the investigation around enrichment that we talked about earlier. My other favorite resource that I just recommend to everyone is the Doggie Language book by Lili Chin. I love that book so much and I find that it’s available at a pretty accessible price point for a lot of people. It's nice to read if you're an adult human, it's great to share with kids, and it’s great to gift to people if you have people in your life that might be interacting with your dog and you want them to have some additional knowledge. I will often tell people grab that book and look through it and see what body language you recognize that your dog has experienced and see if you can pinpoint what kind of context that body language has happened in, because that's just really great information for you to get some good practice at recognizing some of the more nuanced, subtle things that your dog might be communicating.
With regard to upcoming classes, I will be running an intermediate version of my From Nervous Nellie to Confident Canine virtual group class coming out in January. In December I’ll be hosting “12 Days of Training Games” which is a low-cost event centered around ways to make the holiday season with your dogs more fun and less stressful! I’ll be sharing more about that on my Instagram, as well as in my monthly newsletter.