Interview with Kim Palermo on Dog Sports & Control Unleashed

Interview conducted by: Stephanie Keesey-Phelan, Ph.D., BCBA, CSAT, CCUI, FFCT

At DBI we believe that no person, no family, and certainly no dog trainer or behaviorist is an island. If you read our blog regularly, you already know that we believe that if you are a behavior analyst by profession, you are not your dog’s behavior analyst. But you may not know that we often collaborate with other dog training professionals to increase our knowledge and skills, and when we are working with a client whose behavioral presentation falls beyond our scope or expertise. Collaboration with other qualified professionals is a huge part of our work. It allows us to provide the most ethical and effective treatment for the dogs we work with, and also helps us build a wonderful community committed to making lives better for dogs and their people.

To that end, we are expanding our blog to include interviews with some of the amazing professionals who we collaborate with and who work with dogs across a variety of settings and locations. Our goal in doing this is to introduce you, our readers, to people who work in a variety of areas in the dog world but who share a common mission of increasing your dog’s welfare.

This month I am so happy to introduce you to Kimberly Palermo, of Blue Dog, a dog walking and training company based here in Massachusetts. I (Stephanie) first learned about Kim’s work when attending Conference Unleashed, a conference about all things Control Unleashed (CU). Kim gave an incredible presentation about using CU exercises in dog training group classes. Imagine my delight when I learned that Blue Dog wasn’t too far from where I live. I started taking Kerby to classes at Blue Dog and was delighted with all the approach and all the instructors we worked with there. Later on, Kim and I discovered we both were interested in teaching our dogs to herd and soon we and our dogs became good friends!

Kim is such a talented and thoughtful trainer and dog sports enthusiast! I hope you’ll enjoy our conversation below about all things dog sports and Control Unleashed. If you’re interested in more, The Dog Behavior Institute and Blue Dog are partnering to give an in-person workshop all about Control Unleashed at the Canine Center at Hessian Hill Farm this summer. Click here to learn more and register!

Tell our readers a bit about yourself. How did you decide that you wanted to work with animals (and dogs in particular)?

I got my first dog when I was six. My parents were nice enough to get me my very own collie, Maggie. Growing up, my family always had four or five dogs at any given time, and I had goats and chickens, and I rode horses. I loved horses but I connected better with dogs. Working with dogs is just what I’ve always wanted to do. I went to college for zoology in hopes that that would help me in that direction.

Through college I was very inspired by Gail Fisher from All Dogs Gym. I loved her business model and I worked for her for a little bit. I also worked for a bunch of different pet supplies stores and daycares and really just got my feet wet with anything in the pet industry. It's just been my thing since day one, there was never gonna be something else, it was always gonna be dogs.

When we were in college, my sister worked as a waitress and made so much money, and I worked in pet stores and made pennies. But I was always so career driven and I wanted to be in the industry in any way I could, so that's what I did!

Where do you work and what is your role?

Blue Dog is a dog training and dog walking company that I started in 2008. When I got out of college, I experienced pressure to get a “real job,” so I got a sales job. Of course, it was in the pet industry, selling pet supplies to retailers. But I did not enjoy it and I ended up leaving and working for my parents who own a landscape company. I worked for them for a little bit but winter came around and, well, you don't landscape in the winter. I always wanted to do my own thing, to run my own business, so I decided to put an ad in the newspaper for dog walking. I had 100 business cards made and I just started walking dogs. Within like two or three months I created a website and by the end of that year I was turning clients away and I hired my sister to help me. So BlueDog started as just me dog walking dogs, and then after the first year I had to hire employees and I built up a team of dog walkers. Ultimately I wanted to train dogs, so in 2011 we rented our first space in Andover, Massachusetts which we still have today (which is crazy to me!) and we started offering dog training. It was like a dream come true. We now have around 30 employees, with a big team of dog walkers and dog trainers. We’ve expanded to a second location in Lawrence, Massachusetts and offer group classes, private training, and dog walking. My husband Chris and I both own the business together, and we’re both trainers as well. I specialize in teaching Control Unleashed classes, and then I spend time working on new projects, our curriculum, and so forth, with my amazing team.

What special interests do you have within your field?

I really enjoy working with more high-arousal, high-energy dogs; dogs who have some reactivity - I love to problem solve. I also enjoy working with people who train for dog sports with their dogs; not necessarily to teach general dog sports skills, but to problem solve issues that they’re having, whether it’s big feelings or just challenges they’re having with teaching the specific skills.

I also enjoy working with puppies, I absolutely love them and will always love puppies. I’ve raised many puppies myself - if I could just raise puppies all day, I would!

I love all things Control Unleashed and I’m a Certified Control Unleashed Instructor (CCUI). And finally, I really love the idea of helping not just the dog’s mind, but also their body, with decompression and healthy enrichment and how I can use those concepts to help with behavior change.

How did you first become interested in dog sports?

I began in dog sports when I was a kid. I did 4-H with my first collie, Maggie. Through 4-H I learned about a few different sports but it was mostly obedience. My mom bred a few litters, so I would help raise the collie puppies and we did a couple of conformation matches as well. As a little girl I would enter a little puppy into a match and those were my very first experiences with dog sports.

When I was in college, my graduation gift was a collie named Elsa. I got her when she was 6 months old and she had some anxieties. I wasn’t nearly as skilled to help her back then compared to where I am now. I’d never had a dog with anxiety and I wasn’t really sure how to help her through that. At the time, rally obedience was first becoming popular. My mom and I attended a rally obedience workshop where you could bring your dog. So I brought Elsa and during the first half of the workshop they demonstrated what rally was and how to do it. Then we had a lunch break, and during the second half everyone got to try out a course with their dog. I had literally taught Elsa nothing at that point, not even a sit or a down. I tried to quickly cram in some skills during lunch with little success, and once on the course we were a complete disaster, but nonetheless I loved it and wanted to teach Elsa! So I taught her rally skills and she really excelled and it built so much confidence for her. It helped our relationship and she became a much more confident dog, she was a superstar in the ring. So I would say that ultimately it was Elsa who really got me hooked on dog sports.

The training was so different back then, almost 15 years ago. I had no knowledge of Control Unleashed or really any approach to help alleviate Elsa’s anxiety. But I think giving Elsa very specific skills to focus on really helped her. She was kind of a workaholic (in a good healthy way!) The two of us communicating with each other helped her feel connected and that gave her confidence. She was provided predictability through the skills. I look back now and think she would have benefited so much from what I know now, but you know, that’s always the way it is with each dog we own! But I believe that through learning all of these sports skills, she understood what to do in a given situation when we would go into a trial. Rather than being stressed it was, “I know what to do - when mom stops, I stay by her side.” And then that confidence and those skills generalized to real life.

What dog sports have you done? Which are your favorites/least favorite?

As I said, I started with Elsa in rally and obedience. In addition, I have dabbled with a few dogs in agility and right now I’m training for herding, rally, nosework, and tracking - and that’s all with my collie, Jane. I also compete in conformation with Jane as well. Maybe some people would argue that conformation is not a dog sport, but I’m going to say it is because it’s something you’re doing with your dog and it’s a competition with a very clear goal. And I do believe that a dog needs to be physically and mentally fit in order to be in the conformation ring. There are some dogs that just can’t be in that environment, plus they have to perform a stand, gait around the ring, and be examined by a judge - so yeah, it’s totally a sport! I compete in rally with Walt, my mini poodle. He and I are also dabbling in nosework and tracking. I’ve also done some lighter sports like barn hunt, happy ratters, and more recently the ever so popular fast cat.

My favorite sport has changed over time. Right now, my favorite sports are ones that are going to be most natural for a dog, so things like tracking, nosework, herding. I’ll always love rally because that’s what I first started with. But at this point in my career I have such a deeper understanding of the physical structure of a dog and its impact on their comfort and emotions, and I do believe that in some sports there is an element of pushing our dogs outside of what’s best for their bodies. I love the idea of doing something that’s healthy for them both physically and mentally, I think that’s really important.

For each dog it’s different, too. Walt is 11 years old and semi-retired due to health challenges, but he simply loves rally obedience. And there’s nothing I love more than being in the ring with him, watching him prance by my side with a smile on his face. He just has such a blast, so how can I not love rally for what it offers him? And then there’s conformation, which I only just recently became involved in, and it’s really my little girl dream come true. I used to watch all the dog shows on tv and I absolutely loved seeing all the different breeds, and would convince my siblings and friends to play “dog show” with all our dogs all the time. It's just such a thrill to me and now I can be part of it.

I have found agility to be challenging to do on my own because of the need for equipment. I find it very fun, but ultimately don’t compete and only dabble in it. And then some sports you don’t necessarily have to train for to the same extent as others; sports like fast cat or barn hunt you can kind of just show up and do it so long as your dog is prepared for the trial environment.

What barriers come up for people who want to participate in dog sports?

Unfortunately one of the big barriers is that sometimes the sports community isn’t very welcoming to newcomers. It’s hard to get yourself started if you don’t know people. This isn’t always the case, and does depend on the sport, some are more open than others. Even for something like conformation, I wanted to try it for years and it took me finally finding a really great mentor to actually be able to compete. So finding support can be pretty challenging at times.

And then finding a quality local trainer for sports can be challenging as well. In some areas there aren’t a whole lot of training facilities out there that offer sports and it often requires a lot of travel and money, especially if you need equipment and those kinds of things. If I wanted to find quality instruction, I don’t even bat an eye over driving more than an hour for lessons, whatever the sport may be.

Understanding what sports are out there and how to enter a trial and all those kinds of things can be daunting. There are a number of different organizations for most sports. For example, for rally obedience I have competed in WCRL, and with that organization you can use food rewards at some stationary stations. You cannot feed throughout the entire time in the ring, but you can bring food into the ring with you for specific opportunities to reward, whereas in AKC you can’t. This may be a better opportunity for someone who’s new in the sport to try, and it’s how I’ve started my rally dogs. And now I’m starting to think about competing in nosework and I have to consider which venue I want to choose. It can become overwhelming.

For me, finding a group of training buddies was what really helped me most recently to get more involved with the number of different sports - you just have to find the right people to learn from but once you have that, it’s easier!

What is Control Unleashed? How can it be helpful for participating in dog sports?

Control Unleashed is a program created by Leslie McDevitt, and simply put, I consider it a program that helps a dog become more comfortable in their world, and our world. It includes foundation skills that aren’t sports-based, they’re life skills. I find CU skills help sports dogs in the trial environment more than anything, but there’s lots of ways you can use CU for sports.

In the trial environment there’s a lot of people, lots of other dogs, and often the handlers are anxious and nervous. There’s just so much to it, and I find that teaching the sports skills is the easy part and it’s preparing the dog for the trial that can be quite challenging. I used to see it the opposite way because Elsa was a dog I could bring into any trial environment and she was like “Alright, let’s do this!” And now I’ve got my girl Jane who has very big feelings where the trial environment is very challenging for her. Unfortunately, you can’t replicate a trial environment easily (e.g., getting a bunch of people and dogs and judges and ring gates and so forth) in order to practice. So when you go to a trial, it’s the first time that your dog is going to be in that environment. Control Unleashed gives them a skill set that normalizes that context which is, in my opinion, the greatest benefit to teaching CU for dog sports.

If I started a puppy now, I would teach it Control Unleashed as well as the skills required for whatever sport I had chosen for that puppy. Jane is my youngest sports dog and I didn’t start with CU skills for her. Then as she reached adolescence, I realized that she had those big feelings - it’s actually because of her that I became a CCUI. Every dog teaches you so much! Jane taught me that my next puppy will learn CU from the very beginning, in addition to sports skills. It’s challenging to not be results driven and focus heavily on the sports skill themselves, but when I find that handlers do that, often they’ll have to incorporate CU skills reactively if their dog struggles in the trial environment. In my opinion, teaching them together from the start, both sports skills and CU, would be most beneficial.

Can CU exercises be used for dogs outside the context of dog sports?

Absolutely. Control Unleashed allows you to provide your dog with the skills to handle the lack of predictability in any environment, whether it is a sports dog or not. Let’s take a location like a brewery. I went to one last weekend that allows dogs and there was a loud kids party, multiple dogs, and lots of other people. For most dogs, this environment poses a similar problem to the trial environment, and it’s not easy to replicate day-to-day to train for. All dogs can encounter these challenging situations and CU can bridge the gap for them.

Do you have to start dog sports when your dog is young? If you have an older dog, is it too late?

Starting a puppy from scratch is going to be beneficial for dog sports but you certainly don’t have to. For example, I learned nosework and then taught it to Elsa when she was 12 years old. She passed away when she was 13, and teaching her nosework was a great skill for her to learn at that age. It was something she could do despite her physical limitations, and what a wonderful way to continue our sports relationship.

And last year we lost our senior Reese, but before she passed we would bring all five of our dogs to happy ratters which involves the dog going over obstacles to find rats that are secured in safe, hidden containers. Out of all my dogs, our old lady Reese was the one who found the rat the fastest and earned herself a blue ribbon!

You do have to consider your dog’s structure, their health, and how they’re feeling. So maybe getting into competitive obedience with a dog with arthritis isn’t going to be your best option. But I believe that any dog could begin learning any sport at any given time. I began teaching tracking to Jane so I decided to start to do it with Walt at 11 years old, and he’s doing great. So long as they are safe and comfortable, sports are a possibility for any dog of any age.

Do you have to have a purebred dog to compete in dog sports? Or do you have to have a certain type of dog for certain activities (e.g., a border collie if you want to do herding)?

There are so many different breeds of dogs who will excel in different things, but I don’t think that should limit you. I’ve seen breeds you wouldn’t expect doing things like agility or obedience. Conformation is probably the only sport where you really do have to stick with a breed standard! Venues often offer all American dogs (i.e., mixed breeds) the opportunity to compete as well which is a wonderful way for those with dogs that aren’t purebreds to still compete.

So I would say a breed wouldn’t limit you, but, if you wanted to be very competitive, you would benefit from doing your research on which breeds might be more successful in your chosen sport. When I decided to get a miniature poodle (Walt), much of that decision was based on wanting to become competitive in rally and obedience. Poodles are known for their intelligence and ease in training and so forth, so that’s why I picked the breed. And then of course some sports relate to instinct so you want to be mindful of that. It’s best you have a herding breed if you’d like to compete in herding, for example. I have a friend with a Bernese Mountain Dog who does carting, and I certainly wouldn’t be able to do that with my mini poodle!

Overall though, I really think you can do any sport with any dog as long as you’re up for the challenge if they are not a breed that typically does that sport, so long that it’s safe for them to do your chosen sport.

Do you have to compete to participate in dog sports?

No you do not. Competing gives you goals and structure and that’s what I like about it. I’m also a competitive person so I like to compete, but you definitely don’t have to. You can train at home and just teach your dog the skills. There are some venues that offer online titling, so you could, for example, set up a rally course and submit your videos if you weren’t comfortable competing at a trial.

With competing, you have to decide if you enjoy competing, and if your dog enjoys competing. I experience some ring nerves, but it’s a manageable element for me. You have to decide if it’s worth how much anxiety it produces for you. And then of course, consider if the dog is having fun or not. That’s why I’m still competing in rally with Walt. We’re not increasing levels or anything, we’re just sticking with the same level and Walt just loves that. So it depends on the individual dog and individual person, but you certainly don’t have to compete.

One benefit to competing is that once you get your first title, you’ll then begin working on different and more advanced skills if you’d like to get your next title. So it helps to challenge you to continue to work on different skills; though I suppose even then, you don’t have to compete in order to do that.

Ultimately the value in pursuing any sport with any dog, even if you’re not going to compete, is that it helps you build a better relationship with your dog. And better yet, if you’re doing something like nosework or tracking, your dog is doing things that are naturally very reinforcing for them. So it’s just something fun to do with your dog! It helps build skills. I think it even helps to create better behavior in the sense of manners, off leash recall, and even nice leash walking. Even if you don’t compete, you’re just learning so much, it’s so much fun!

What is one resource that you like to share with people around starting out in dog sports or in regards to Control Unleashed?

For Control Unleashed I would recommend starting with Leslie’s books which can be purchased online. For someone who is looking to get involved with sports, starting with the American Kennel Club to browse the different sports that are out there might be a good place to begin.. We don’t offer this yet at BlueDog, but some training facilities offer sports sampler classes for people who want to learn and try out what might be beneficial for their dog which is a great way to discover sports.

How can someone get started at BlueDog if they wanted to do CU or dog sports? Or this could just be in general, what are the best steps to getting started in dog sports?

We do offer rally obedience classes and nosework as far as sports go. We are always running Control Unleashed classes and then I offer private lessons on anything sports-related. Most sports clients I work with are coming to me to troubleshoot specific problems or behavioral issues with your sports dog, but we also work on general skills too.

What do you like least about your job?

I work with a wide range of dogs, not just sports dogs, and I can really struggle with seeing the extreme amount of trauma and anxiety that some dogs experience. It’s just heartbreaking to see the challenges that some of these dogs, and then in turn their owners, must deal with. And then the other thing that I like least about my job is that within this industry as a whole, there are a lot of people out there who teach dogs without kindness. I can’t help but feel emotionally weary knowing that there are dogs out there who aren’t able to learn in a way that is healthy, kind, or emotionally supportive.

What is your favorite part of your job?

My favorite part of the job is when I see a really strong and beautiful connection between an owner and their dog. Nothing makes me happier! Some of our clients need to really work for it and must learn how to get it, and others you just see it from the get-go. It’s just so reinforcing for me watching the team progress and learn together and enjoy each other’s company. That’s why I do this!

And the other thing I love about my job is that I get to partner with my own dogs. They come to work with me and help me teach clients. I mean, what better than having your coworker be your dog?

What advice would you give to someone who was interested in pursuing your career?

I would say for one, getting your hands on as many dogs as possible. Train your own dog, a friend’s dog, or volunteer at a shelter to learn. There’s lots of opportunities to learn through classes and online, but ultimately working with and observing dogs is where you’ll learn the most. And truly, training my dogs for sports has made me a significantly better trainer. Each sport requires a commitment to precision and skill and can be a huge asset to your learning.

And finding a trainer or someone who can mentor you, and understanding that they’re giving up their time and knowledge to help you. I think a mentorship is a great way for someone to learn. It may not be paid, but through learning from others, attending classes, and simply observing, you can learn so much. Even to this day, I love going to classes taught by other trainers either at BlueDog or other facilities and just watching, because I learn so much!

Those would be my biggest suggestions. But then, you know, just follow your dreams, it’s worth the risks!